Start A Electric Car Company

topic posted Fri, March 13, 2009 - 11:52 AM by  Big Dave
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Do you have plans for a car? Are you driving one? Time to put up or shut up gang.........

I'll be putting my project plans up shortly. (I have an electric "BUS" project going.)

Let's not sit and wait for "them" to do it! They have been dragging their feet too long!
posted by:
Big Dave
Hawaii
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  • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

    Fri, March 13, 2009 - 1:15 PM
    I wish you the best in luck, my friend. I have watched my first electric car manufactor go out of business and I'm watching the manufactor of my second car go down in flames. While the sentiment is nice, Tesla is trying what no one else could- taking on the Big 3 with electric vehicles. And so far its not working.

    And don't even get me started on Zap. Just google the Wired article and you'll get an idea on how they roll. I have one and can verify the quality and their parts support are the lowest I've seen.

    I'm assuming you have the capital or investors willing to put big money into mass production?

    If you are talking just building your own- hell that's been done. That's not what's going to sell it to the general public. And if the gen pop doesn't buy it- its just another sideshow exhibit for the masses.
    • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

      Fri, March 13, 2009 - 1:46 PM
      Do you have anything positive to add???
      • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

        Fri, March 13, 2009 - 3:40 PM
        I'm looking for a commercially produced, low priced electric vehicle.
        I anticipate that there will be a few auto plants available on the auction block soon. They can be retrofitted for your manufacturing process.
        Looking forward to the new wave, once the old guard gives up it's throne and stranglehold on free flowing new ideas.
      • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

        Sat, March 14, 2009 - 2:18 PM
        Yes, don't tell a bunch of people to 'put up or shut up' unless you start an viable electric car company. Pipe dreams only serve to have more folded companies, which in turn makes the whole industry look bad. Which means investors look to the history of American electric car manufacturors and then refuse to offer finance capital.

        Less confrontational 'you guys do this or shut up' talk and more viable business models.

    • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

      Fri, March 13, 2009 - 3:59 PM
      I don't see Tesla as taking on the conventional car makers or even trying to approach the regular market place at all. Their audience is really the very wealthy: You know those sorts of people who can buy a high end luxury or sport car as a play thing.

      So long as the world has enough of them Tesla's slick design and interesting car will have a slim marketplace.

      If they wanted to go head to head with the US car makers they'd build electric SUVs and Trucks.
      SUVs and Trucks are what the popular market place is buying.
      No one who drives a Ford Fiesta is looking to spend 30 - 50 Gees on a car.
      • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

        Fri, March 13, 2009 - 4:19 PM
        Plant a seed and it will grow. It's pretty obvious the present system is crumbling... and from the dust will be created another NORMAL
        The important thing is to get these things into the showrooms even if it starts on an indy level.
        Once the choices are there the cream will rise.
      • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

        Fri, March 13, 2009 - 4:51 PM
        Tesla's Roadster is a good place to start. No one can say that is not a great car. It rocks.
        AND is proves that if you make it they will come. There's a waiting list for them.

        Now to built a nice lil SUV for the rest of us is very possible.
        We do have to kick the "Big Three" into it and we need new companies to step up.
        BMW is going to release a electric Mini-Cooper. They are using the AC Propulsion motor.

        And before anyone starts winning about "range", the testa is good for 200+ miles per charge.
        So if they can, anyone can make a car do that.

        Just stop buying new cars. Wait until they get the message.
        "They" will have to bring back the Dodge Turbine(1965) and the GMC Van(1989)

        Both of which worked well and were destroyed before they were marketed. I have seen the van, but the Dodge was crushed.
        • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

          Sat, March 14, 2009 - 2:59 PM
          The normal business model for electric cars have been to build a low end model and then improve it. The problem is that the brilliant engineers that developed the Gizmo, Sparrow, Zap Zippy, etc. sucked at being businessmen. Then a business savvy individual would come in and destroy the company by eating away at the quality in order to maximize profits. This hasn't worked. Pretty much every electric car manufacturer in the US has folded in under ten years.

          Tesla motors had a different idea. They would market to the wealthy high end performance junkies. Electric motors have insane amounts of torque compared to ICEs (internal combustion engines), so this was easy. More efficient, cheaper to power, and beat damn near every car on the market in the quarter mile.

          This gets their brand name out there as the newest best thing and it presents solid proof that electric cars are viable. As the profits start rolling in, they have IP (intellectual property- patented designs) under their belt, they expand their production facility, and then start designing affordable vehicles. If you check their mission statement- this is exactly their plan. They expect production of a sedan model in 2011 for less than $50k (Model S) and eventually produce a sub $30k model some time around 2012 (BlueStar).

          So how does this help someone on Tribe looking to build an electric car?

          You won't compete with Tesla. Get that into your head right off the bat. It was originally founded by the co-founder of PayPal, then additional partners came in from Google and eBay. They floated $187 million into the company and so far have delivered 187 cars. They are looking to get $250 million from the department of energy and I hope they get it. You need to have major capital to go head-to-head against the Big 3. Once you have the production facilities and start producing en masse, things can start getting cheaper.

          So how to do it on a shoestring budget? You can open a conversion shop, there are plenty of places around for that- but you still aren't actually producing anything. Just taking used car shells and placing other people's equipment into it. You won't get good profit margins from that and if you ever start getting big enough- I can guarantee you problems will arise in the form of lawsuits from the Big 3. They can claim safety issues and breaking ODOT rules. They can claim patent infringement on attaching to their car shells or some such. Doesn't matter what they do as long as they throw lawyers at you. Its a common technique to bankrupt smaller companies that threaten their profit margin. Doesn't matter if the suit has merit, just keep the other company tied up in court with legal holds on their cars.

          So what other way to do it? Look up the Corbin Sparrow, Gizmo, Zap, etc. Notice that they are three wheeled vehicles. This gets around the strict ODOT requirements as they are classified as motorcycles. Go for single or two person lightweight vehicles. Make them under $15k. Make sure to NEVER let some business guy come in and take control of the company. Drive quality and afford-ability. Once you start making some money, expand your line. One idea I have had for quite some time is to make a three wheeled vehicle that you can back a wheelchair into. The Gizmo top lifts up, so this is a perfect example. Once in- small electric winches pull the chair up and lock it in place. Then drive wherever you want.

          As to forcing Big 3 into making them again, I wouldn't count on that. They killed more than the turbine and van. There were many viable solutions developed and run when California used legislation to force the car companies to develop electric. Then once their lawyers were able to ease up the restrictions, they immediately canned them.

          Why? They make a huge profit from auto parts. I read somewhere that 30% of their revenue is from original equipment parts. I don't have a citation for that though I do know they get a sizable revenue. Electric cars will require far less parts, so its a losing business to make them. Add to that the various kick backs they get from oil companies. As long as they can shove ICEs down our throats, they will.
          • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

            Sun, March 15, 2009 - 10:44 AM
            Good, great passion.............

            Step A <and it (Tesla) presents solid proof that electric cars are viable.> Done..............
            Step B <Make them under $15k.> Can be done..............
            Step C Protect the small company from the Big 3. MUST be done.

            Any "type" of vehicle can be built. "Kit Cars" are in every flavor you can think of.
            Adding in electric motors, energy storage, on board generating. We now can have nice electric cars.

            Want a 32 coupe, a 56 Ford Pickup, a GT40 Ford? Their are "kits" for these and more. Most of the work in building a safe car is the frame/suppendtion systems. Kit cars don't try and reinvent them, they just use current stock. Again just add in the "electric parts" and you're down the road. To extend range add in PV solar "skins" (under the clear coat paint layers), small on board turbine/generators, reg-gen brakes,etc.

            BTW, I'm not debating this, I'm work toward this.
            I have designs and a parts list. Good elecrtic cars are coming.
            If from the backyard or the brickyard, they are coming.

            I remember the company "Real Goods", their owner, built an Electric Porsche years ago. (no charging system on board)

            Anyone else have a car now? Any Tesla owner want to speak up?


        • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

          Tue, March 17, 2009 - 6:56 AM
          The heavy SUV like the Hummer or the Escalade or Navigator are ideal for electric car conversions. They already have heavy duty suspensions and you shouldn't need to do much to get them to handle the added weight of the batteries and there's lot of room for the batteries in a big SUV.

          So too the heavy class of truck like the F350 because they come with heavy duty suspensions, steel rail frames, and plenty of room in the extended cab and under the bed. The extended cab if used for batteries will add the nice plus of placing the majority of weight amidships. The long wheel base will force excellent tracking for good handling.

          I think conversions is the smartest way to go. This, whether you areinto DIY vehicle or hoping to develop a business model.
          Conversion can get you into the market place without all the millions of dollars of tooling and manufacturing costs needed to build the infrastructure of a vehicle. And it'll help you learn the business while you are developing what you see as your niche in the market.
          • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

            Tue, March 17, 2009 - 1:15 PM
            So do you think the majors would ever sell "Conversion Ready" vehicles, minus the engines?
            • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

              Tue, March 17, 2009 - 2:00 PM
              <So do you think the majors would ever sell "Conversion Ready" vehicles, minus the engines? >

              GMC sold a van without "guts" in 1989. I'd think they would sell anything today! They need the sales!
              With the VOLT (GM) and the like about to hit, they might hold back. But who know what they are thinking these days.
              RV makers buy frames and motors all the time.

              I like the "kit cars", they use big three "parts" but they are mostly fiberglass bodies and are much lighter.
              An electric drive train can be added to just about anything.

              I wouldn't wait for the big 3 to do anything for us. A "Big Four" Electric Car Company is in our near future.

            • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

              Wed, March 18, 2009 - 10:41 AM
              ****** So do you think the majors would ever sell "Conversion Ready" vehicles, minus the engines? **************

              No.
              • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                Wed, March 18, 2009 - 1:37 PM
                Maybe a car dealership of the future would feature a completely customizable vehicle, with options of any kind of energy drive.... air... hydrogen... electricity... solar roof... bio-deisel ... or the Classic... petroleum.
                ... that kind of sales approach would probably get people interested in purchasing a new vehicle.
                • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                  Fri, March 20, 2009 - 11:54 AM
                  <Maybe a car dealership of the future would feature a completely customizable vehicle, with options of any kind of energy drive.... air... hydrogen... electricity... solar roof... bio-deisel ... or the Classic... petroleum.
                  ... that kind of sales approach would probably get people interested in purchasing a new vehicle. >

                  Good thought!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                    Fri, March 20, 2009 - 1:29 PM
                    I just got a email from GM, great way to sell more product huh!
                    They did - evalbum.com/1413
                    _______________________________________________________________________
                    From: vince.styrna@gm.com <vince.styrna@gm.com>
                    Subject: Re: Subject
                    To: bdl@bigdavelittle.com
                    Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 12:06 PM

                    TO: Big Dave Little

                    GM does not make vans without a engine.

                    Vince Styrna
                    GM Fleet & Commercial
                    An employee of Unistaff, Inc.
                    Providing Specialized Services for GM Fleet Operations
                    31 E Judson
                    Pontiac, MI 48342
                    800-353-3867
                    Fax: 248-874-0943
                    Hours of Operation
                    Monday - Friday
                    8:00am - 8:00pm Eastern
                    • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                      Fri, March 20, 2009 - 1:30 PM
                      This is nice
                      www.chryslerllc.com/en/innov...ngler.php

                      Step forward........
                      • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                        Sat, March 21, 2009 - 12:59 AM
                        Now we will see if Christler stays in biz long enough to start selling these new vehicles. The Dodge Circut sounds like competition for the Tesla.
                        I wouldn't mind a Jeep Patriot.
                        • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                          Sat, March 21, 2009 - 6:57 AM
                          <Now we will see if Christler stays in biz long enough to start selling these new vehicles.>

                          I know!! The GM Volt better get out soon too!!
                          I did see a Malibu Hybrid with a solar panel embedded in the roof! I like that.

                          On-board charging systems seems like a must.
                        • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                          Sat, March 21, 2009 - 7:10 AM
                          The Dodge does look good! Thanks "X"

                          www.youtube.com/watch

                          "WHAT MAKES IT TICK? More like hum, to be precise. There’s no engine of any kind in this all-electric prototype. Three components propel it: a 200-kilowatt electric motor that drives the wheels; a lithium-ion battery system to power the electric motor; and a controller that manages energy flow. The electric motor has 268 horsepower and 480 pound-feet of torque; and goes from zero to 60 in less than 5 seconds, which is on a par with the Dodge Challenger SRT’s 6.1-liter V-8 Hemi. The components are shared across all of the ENVI prototypes."

                          Oh and this looks great!!! Get busy Dodge, I want one! (another name would be better. lol!

                          www.dodge.com/en/autoshow...ehicles/zeo/
                • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                  Tue, March 24, 2009 - 10:02 AM
                  *************Maybe a car dealership of the future would feature a completely customizable vehicle, with options of any kind of energy drive.... air... hydrogen... electricity... solar roof... bio-deisel ... or the Classic... petroleum.
                  ... that kind of sales approach would probably get people interested in purchasing a new vehicle. **************

                  An Ala Cart car ordering process.

                  I am guessing no.
                  The very idea defeats the concept of mass production.
                  You need to stop the process, deliver something different to the line (a whole lot of somethings different) and then have different people assembling it cause it'd require a different skill set, tools, and fasteners.

                  This is one of the reasons why custom ordering a car is so costly. The customer wants something more or less or different. That means things have to be interrupted and taken down different tracks. And that's for cars that are essentially the same. You want HUGE differences.

                  So unless you are hoping to compete with Tesla the answer is no it'll not happen.

                  In theory it might be do-able of the car manufacturing were done by very sophisticated robots but then you'd be putting all the people out of work who'd be making the cars And of course those robots would not be cheap so you'd either need billions of car orders or you'd need to charge a hell of a lot of money.
            • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

              Sat, March 21, 2009 - 7:03 PM
              What you are talking about is called a "glider"
              and GM did it with the S-10 for awhile.

              And a company called Solectria got a bunch of gliders and converted
              them to the "Soletria Force"

              It is possible..... and at the moment - I think it would be even more possible.

              PS I built and EV prototype for manufacture 10 years ago.
              I am waiting for funding for setting up an assembly line.

              • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                Tue, March 24, 2009 - 10:03 AM
                *************PS I built and EV prototype for manufacture 10 years ago.
                I am waiting for funding for setting up an assembly line. *************'

                What's the estimated retail cost of your car?


                • Re: Start A Electric Car Company

                  Wed, March 25, 2009 - 3:30 PM
                  I was not designing it for retail purchasers -
                  the design was for fleet users for numerous reasons...

                  And 10 years ago - with those prices and Optima Yellow Top batteries
                  the projected price was $34k - right at the luxury tax amount.

                  This was doing small scale hand assembly.

                  Most small scale assembly vehicles, gas or electric will not be found
                  under $50k, so we were really aiming on low price.

                  Now a-days - I'll have to recalculate the parts and labor estimates....
                  And these days you get a choice of batteries.
                  Lithium Ion and Lithium Iron and Lithium Phosphate are all available.


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